I regret meeting ex-CJP Saqib Nisar when I was PM, says Shahid Khaqan Abbasi

LAHORE: This week Bol News spoke to Former prime minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi who is not someone who minces his words. A respected figure in Pakistan politics, his voice carries lot of weight, both in and out of the Parliament. Ranked among Nawaz Sharif’s most able lieutenants, Shahid Khaqan Abbasi has been at the forefront during the PML-N’s three-year struggle in the face of arrests, corruption charges, victimisation etc that it has been subjected to in the tenure of the Imran Khan-led PTI government.

Bol News recently spoke to the ex-PM exclusively to know his point of view about the number of thorny issues confronting his party and the country itself.

Bol News: What is your take on the recent row over the affidavit submitted by former Chief Justice of Gilgit Baltistan Rana Shameem against the ex- Chief Justice of Pakistan (CJP) Saqib Nisar with reference to Nawaz Sharif and Maryam Nawaz’s custody during the 2018 polls.

Shahid Khaqan Abbasi (SKA): I have already held two-three press conferences on this affidavit row and now we should move forward and decide whether something is going to be done about it or not. If they don’t consider it a serious issue then it’s okay although it is a very serious matter. I usually quote this example that in our country an elected Prime Minister was ousted for not paying the Iqama fees over which a suo-moto notice was issued and the trial court was the Supreme Court (SC). Today, a first hand witness who is a former CJ of Gilgit Baltistan has made very serious allegations against the former Chief Justice of Pakistan (CJP) Saqib Nisar but no one is taking it seriously and trying to brush it under the carpet and bury it in history.

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But in my opinion these are the defining moments for the country and a commission should be formed to probe this and listen to both the parties to bring the truth before the masses and investigate if this actually happened. One thing is for sure that one of the two gentlemen are lying and that needs to be probed. I have complete faith in our judiciary and it is their test and they know what to do about it. The judiciary which has suo-moto powers and exercise it as well too should take up this issue which is a huge one for sure.

Bol: Since the matter is in court now, they [judiciary] are likely to say these are contempt notices so prove them. Now it is obvious that if I have an informal conversation with you on some lawn or on a coffee table neither I can prove it nor you? So what is the way to prove it?

SKA: There is a way to prove it, check their phone records. The Registrar is here and his name has also surfaced. The conversation took place on the phone and they should check the records. The conversation was done on the phone not in a one-on-one meeting and the truth must come out. Even if it comes to notice during the probe that the call was made to registrar and directions were given to him, he must be alive and could be asked about it, The timings of the phone calls could be checked. Alternatively, if somebody have made false allegations he should be put behind the bars for fraud. But something needs to be done, otherwise just brush this serious issue under the carpet too as we have done in the past.

Bol: In your opinion, does it make sense for CJ GB to go to London after three years of that episode and getting the affidavit notarized from the same place where Mian Nawaz Sharif’s medical reports were notarized. His son in a TV interview to Kashif Abbasi said that he [Shamim] had a meeting with Nawaz Sharif in London but in a second interview he shied away from replying to this question. What do you say to that?

SKA:  Let me ask you a question: Will meeting the PML-N supremo Mian Nawaz Sharif have any impact or make any difference on this affidavit submitted by ex-CJ Gilgit Baltistan Rana Shamim against former CJP Saqib Nisar? Does it make any difference if he had got this affidavit notarized from the same place from where Nawaz Sharif Sahab has notarized his reports? As you said that he met Mian Sahab and said there is a burden on his conscience about what he saw and heard. So if Nawaz Shareef asked him that okay write an affidavit and submit it after getting it notarized, how does it become fake or wrong? It is not a crime to meet Mian Sahab. It has happened in the past too, in the Arshad Malik issue, The fact is that he has submitted an affidavit. A truth commission should now be formed so that the truth comes out in front of everyone.

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Bol: You only met one Chief Justice of Pakistan (CJP) Saqib Nisar during your stint as PM. How was that meeting? And what was discussed in that meeting? And on whose request did that meeting take place?

SKA: Yes, I only met one CJP in my life and I would not like to take his name. Although it was a public meeting, I regret it but I don’t want to talk about the reasons for it at the moment. The person I had met, I don’t think he deserved to be the chief justice of this country. I don’t want to share the details of that meeting, but whatever has come out in front of you in the recent row, I could trust that whatever Justice Shamim is saying is right and he is telling the truth, although I don’t have any evidence to prove it.

As far as my meeting with him is concerned I have certain perceptions in my mind for that respectable office. I would have talked about it in case he [Saqib Nisar] was here. Let’s not go into further details. All I want to say is that I wasn’t impressed by him in that meeting. If someone is a chief justice what should be his conduct, what will he talk about and what will be his vision. Everyone has some perception about it but I wasn’t impressed in that meeting. However, If I ever write any book in future I will give out the details of that meeting in it [laughs]. But the only thing I could tell was that no court matters were discussed in that meeting. First you must investigate that the meeting took place on whose instructions. Either I would have asked for it or him? I don’t want to talk about judiciary but when it [judiciary] will involve itself in such things and expose itself, then eyebrows will be raised and people will also talk about it.

Bol: Lot of bills were passed during the joint session of the parliament including the usage of EVMs in the next general elections. Do you think that 2023 general elections would be conducted through EVMs, and what will you do if they are?

SKA: I don’t think elections using EVMs could take place ever in Pakistan. First of all, the government doesn’t conduct elections nor it could give such guidelines. We need to study the constitution which clearly says that free, fair, just and honest elections are the responsibility of the Election Commission of Pakistan (ECP). ECP says that these EVMs are an old and flopped system which is currently being used only in six countries. These standalone machines [EVMs] are the technology of the 60s and 70s. This is an obsolete system which has ended globally. Pakistan can make one of the best systems of voting and no other country would have a better system than us. But there is a small problem; those election won’t be stolen. In a country where elections are stolen, if you change the system it will lead to more confusion and doubts. Don’t take elections so lightly because our country was separated on the issue of elections.

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Bol: Do you have any objections to the overseas voters who are living abroad?

SKA: No, they have the voting rights already. But how would you implement the two systems? How would they vote on the internet? You will make two systems If you are making an internet voting then I should be given the right as well and people who live in Karachi could vote from there, people who are in Peshawar could also vote from there. If you are giving this right to people in the country as well then sure bring the internet system.

I have seen the US voting here. They have to go to the embassy to cast votes and they don’t cast votes using the internet. I am sorry, you cannot introduce two systems of voting in the country. As far as postal ballots are concerned, they are still here and it is used in case if a person doesn’t have any other option, for example if I am working somewhere and away and then it is used it is just and that too it is just a fraction of a percent. These issues should have been studied, debated, improved and then passed from the parliament. Electoral reforms/laws cannot be made by just the government. What will you do if the next government comes and changes it, electoral reforms and laws are passed through consensus? The next general elections will not be conducted using these systems [EVM and i-Voting for Overseas Pakistanis]. If you want to introduce internet voting then make a system and give rights to everyone even to people who are living in Pakistan. They must be given this right as well. Let’s say if I am in Karachi and have to come to Murree by spending Rs 40000 to just cast my vote. The voting rights for overseas Pakistanis is already there in the shape of physical vote. There are some other important questions and issues in it, 50 percent of your overseas population which are actually overseas Pakistanis and only have Pakistan’s nationality and are not the citizens of any other city or country and are overseas they are in those states where elections doesn’t take place which includes Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Qatar, Kuwait and Oman. These are the people who are not dual national, then you have people in Europe, United Kingdom (UK), United States of America (USA) and Canada who are generally dual nationals. So, every dual national’s oath is different, for instance the oath in the US states that you cannot be loyal to any other country. Should we give the right to vote there?. If you literally want to give representation to the overseas Pakistanis give them your seats [5-10]. They will have their seats and representatives who will talk about their rights and address the problems faced by them. Here if some person is living in Manchester for 50 years, what benefit will he get in voting for my constituency?

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Bol: Pakistan Peoples Party is pointing it out time and again that you gave them a show cause notice for getting votes from the BAP Party? Is it true or was it because of some other reason?

SKA: I didn’t give them the show cause notice for getting votes from BAP party. It was given on grounds that they violated the decision reached at the PDM meeting which was that while Chairman Senate candidate will be Yousaf Raza Gillani from PPP, the PML-N will nominate the candidate for leader of the opposition and Jamiat-e-Ulema-Islam-Fazl (JUI-F) will nominate its candidate for deputy chairman senate. I never taunt anyone for getting votes from BAP, all this issue took place because they backed off from PDM’s decision and became leader of the opposition in the Senate and that decision was taken at my residence.

As far as getting votes from BAP is concerned, I don’t have any issue. You can take it from BAP, mama or dada. It is your decision. I have no issue with that. But don’t back off from the decisions. The alliances are based on trust. If you break the trust and back off from a decision and that too in such an ugly way. They (PPP) took the govt’s legislators and made them sit on the opposition benches and then claimed that “we are in majority now and have become leader of the opposition.”

Bol: Senior PML-N Leader Khawaja Asif believes that no confidence motion should have come earlier, firstly in Punjab and later in Islamabad. In politics the opportunities should be timely availed and not missed as it might happen that the train wont come again to that platform. It seems that Abbasi Sahab’s train arrived but it is still parked and have not moved?

SKA: Everyone have their own perception about the time of bringing a no confidence motion, whether it should be brought instantly or later. In my opinion if there is an opportunity anywhere to check the no confidence motion it is in the Senate, where recently 51 senators voted for you. As far as Punjab is concerned it is a bigger game and I always say until the system is not run as per the Constitution, no protection is there for no confidence motion. You have to produce certain number of people on a day which is also decided by the speaker. Let’s assume he says bring 180-200 legislators on Friday, what will happen then. If 10 people are taken by Punjab police, 20 are taken by National Accountability Bureau (NAB), some taken by the Federal Investigation (FIA) or Rangers or tyres of some people’s cars would be punctured on the day, how will you ensure the count? Anything can happens in Pakistan. Let’s put it this way, where the system is not according to the Constitution, there is no way you can conduct anything in the constitutional way.

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Bol: Khawaja Asif also tweeted that EVM is being brought through Imran Khan but it is not for him? Could you please elaborate on his tweet? Do you think another ‘selected’ is being prepared?

SKA: Khawaja Sahab will tell about this. But this is a deep thing which he is saying. Whatever Khawaja is saying is not far from reality. If we keep on doing these mischievous things, nothing will improve here. That’s why I am against EVM because by using it you will steal the elections, as done in the past by RTS, and you will not have any evidence of it and they will say that this is what came out of machines.

Bol: Another Senior PML-N leader Rana Sanaullah has said that many of PTI legislators were in contact with you even before the joint session of Tuesday? Is it true?

SKA: Yes, 22 of them were in contact with us that I am aware of. Yes, it was a golden opportunity and why it wasn’t done was answered by Amir Liaquat Hussain outside the parliament.